http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ ChurchCrunch Forums » Topic: Virtual Communion Discussion en Sun, 14 Mar 2010 05:54:20 +0000 http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1156 Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:34:32 +0000 markalves 1156@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>@stephenbateman -- Interesting question. The exception is made for those who are physically unable to go and their caregivers. Otherwise, you&#39;re expected to show up in person each Sunday. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1142 Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:07:40 +0000 sammahlstadt 1142@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>As part of a church plant that is re-thinking how and why we do things as a church, let me just say a big thank you to everyone for wrestling with this and the great dialogue that has come out of it! I love the different perspectives and the desire to honor God, no matter how it is done. This is promising to me! </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1140 Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:41:39 +0000 stephenbateman 1140@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>Thanks for that perspective Mark. Any idea what the Catholic church&#39;s position is on people who aren&#39;t homebound, but simply choose church in their homes, for one reason or another? </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1131 Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:52:03 +0000 markalves 1131@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>As you consider models for virtual communion, here&#39;s my Catholic perspective. Many Catholic areas televise a Mass on Sunday aimed at homebound parishioners. Doing so gives those who cannot come to church in person (often the elderly) the chance to participate in at least a partial--or virtual--manner. This practice is supplemented with visits by priests or Eucharistic Ministers (lay volunteers) who administer Communion in person, weekly if possible. In the case of the volunteers, they are usually bringing the Communion that was consecrated that same day at Mass. Virtual gets you part of the way, but at some point face-to-face interaction gives you the important communal part of Communion. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1034 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:37:11 +0000 supermoonman 1034@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>@johndyer In regards to your second paragraph: great thoughts! I do think that there is a validity to the &quot;sick people&quot; rationality for online church stuff, however. I personally know many people (older women stick out in my mind) who, if they couldn&#39;t attend church because they were sick, would be distraught. People visiting them would be great, but I know of lots of people who <em>love</em> going to church. On the same token, though, you&#39;ve got a great point, and I wouldn&#39;t want to detract from that at all, because I think that a relational connection is extremely important there.</p> <p>I think your last sentence is my favorite word on the issue so far. Churches aren&#39;t necessarily <em>wrong</em>, we&#39;ve just got to keep processing how to best love and honor Jesus. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1032 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:11:17 +0000 johndyer 1032@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>I did want to make one clarificatoin. The example I gave was of augmented reality bread and drink (i.e. no actual bread exists), while online churches like LifeChurch.tv ask attendees to buy their own bread and drink and then everyone watching online takes it at the same time. While I can definitely see the usefulness and convenience of what LifeChurch.tv does, I&#39;m not really sure there is any usefulness to the example I gave. Even if you were trying to save money on bread, you&#39;d have to buy a computer to do it!</p> <p>On another note, the Catholic church which I think clearly takes communion more seriously than the majority evangelicalism, does have some non-standard practices for certain situations. For example, when someone is sick, a priest can visit them in their home or in the hospital and give them the elements. I think it&#39;s very telling that as Protestants, we use the example of a sick person as a reason to do a lot of things online, rather than actually visiting the person.</p> <p>Also, one thing I really like is how a lot of the questions about online church really make us think about how we do offline church. For example, some evangelicals that would cry foul at online communion because it is impersonal go to mega-churches that are arguably just as impersonal. My hope is that these issue make all churches rethink how best to honor the head of their body, our Lord Jesus Christ. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1030 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:28:52 +0000 stephenbateman 1030@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>@AdamS exactly! I see online being a starting point that eventually &quot;goes physical&quot; with respect to church and community. For most people (certainly in America) there are enough good churches that eventually it&#39;s time to find that home community. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1027 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:25:34 +0000 AdamS 1027@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>Just to throw another thought in, I saw a stat today that said that 1 in 8 couples that are getting married this year met on the internet. You can&#39;t get more intimate and physical than marriage, but still a significant group of people are looking online for a physical relationship. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1023 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:24:13 +0000 jbwagner 1023@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>As far as I can remember, when Jesus was breaking the bread and passing the cup, He said to do this in remembrance. I don&#39;t think that has to be with your congregation. You can remember alone, and sometimes, in that aloneness, the remembering is much more powerful than being with the crowd. Sometimes it&#39;s not.</p> <p>That said, the internet and social networks cannot and should not replace physical communities, or their rituals. I could never replace communal worship in my life. It is something that we experience even as we take part. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1021 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:16:38 +0000 stephenbateman 1021@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>Good points all. I&#39;ve had a change of heart.</p> <p>I&#39;m going to side with communion online, being a viable means of fulfilling the function of Communion. Here&#39;s why:</p> <ul> <li> I pretty firmly believe that it is symbolism, not miraculous transformation</li> <li> The most important thing is that Jesus is lifted up, and remembered, the elements are a means to an end</li> <li> I think you can effectively take communion alone, as a personal Spiritual experience*</li> <li> Driscoll: Methods - Open Hand ; Theology - Closed Hand</li> </ul> <p>These, possibly among other reasons, have informed my conclusion. Whatcha got?</p> <p>* Though that shouldn&#39;t replace communal communion </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1018 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:48:11 +0000 AdamS 1018@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>I am going to throw in some assumptions about how this would work and see what you think. I am not on a planning team or anything so at this point there isn&#39;t any practical experience just ideas.</p> <p>So I think that you should whenever possible have actual bread and cup. That the person would, in front of their computer partake. That most of the time will be alone, but at least occasionally people will be participating together. It will bring up some issues because not a ton of people keep grape juice around. Probably more people have wine in their house than grape juice. A lot of people won&#39;t have either.</p> <p>Second, I think that whatever you do, you should make every attempt for it to be as communal as possible. So multiple windows of people also taking communion. Chat going on about, public confession or comments. etc. Right now, in my very large church the communal aspect of the Lord&#39;s Table is in the mass of people taking it together. But there isn&#39;t any discussion or conversation. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1017 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:41:48 +0000 supermoonman 1017@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>Part of me wants to say that the Eucharist is significantly communal, so much so that to divorce community from communion would be to lose a large portion of its value (hence the &quot;you proclaim the Lord&#39;s death until He comes). The other part of me thinks that the &quot;do this in remembrance of me&quot; doesn&#39;t exactly require anyone else to be physically present with the communion-taker. In that regard, as long as the &quot;remembrance&quot; is happening, who needs anybody but Jesus?</p> <p>I&#39;m stuck, however, thinking about how Luther or Zwingli (two guys involved in two of those three views listed in the original post) would answer this question. I don&#39;t claim to be a communion scholar, historical theologian, or expert on either of those guys, but I&#39;m still considering it. Something tells me that they would be all for the physical eating and drinking, but I could be wrong.</p> <p>For me it comes down both to loving God and loving others and to obedience to the commands of Jesus and the traditions set in place by He and other New Testament guys. I&#39;ve come to no decisions yet, but that&#39;s where I&#39;m looking.</p> <p>Great discussion. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1014 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:13:59 +0000 AdamS 1014@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>It is true that early Christians celebrated communion as a full meal, not just our five minute or less version. That is why Paul discussed the problems of people not completely sharing their meal together. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1013 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:36:05 +0000 sammahlstadt 1013@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>Let&#39;s remember that the last supper was a seder meal, that would have taken place over several hours. when jesus &quot;takes the cup&quot; and &quot;takes the bread&quot; he is bringing attention to 2 of the many elements in the seder. In fact, we now only acknowledge 1 cup - the wine or juice - in communion, but in the seder meal, there are 6 cups that he would have blessed. So to me, the real question is this: we have already drastically abbreviated the concept in order to bring it into a corporate gathering (which doesn&#39;t even make sense in the context of the YEARLY EVENT of the seder) and now, can we take that abbreviation and remove physical contact? I think it&#39;s a dangerous thing. Buuuuuut, if you believe that the elements change (spiritually or physically) then we are talking about a straight up miracle. God exists outside of time and space, so our distance from each other doesn&#39;t affect the miracle. If you believe it&#39;s a memorial, then why couldn&#39;t we memorialize from distance? BIG question. I would shy away from &quot;removing&quot; communal elements that are foundational to our faith, especially to communion. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1011 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:54:06 +0000 stephenbateman 1011@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>uugh idk. I really really want to believe that you can have a full, vibrant church that exists solely on the internet. But I&#39;m unsure. </p> <p>Jesus introduces communion in the context of a meal. I&#39;m concerned that online communion is the spiritual equivalent of <strong>fast food.</strong></p> <p>to inform discussion: <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2022:14-21;&amp;version=31" rel="nofollow">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2022:14-21;&amp;version=31</a>; </p> <p>Communion (and baptism) absolutely affect online church. They are the big markers of a Christian body! I&#39;m looking forward to what ya&#39;ll have to say. </p> http://churchcrunch.com/forums/topic/virtual-communion-discussion#post-1008 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:18:32 +0000 AdamS 1008@http://churchcrunch.com/forums/ <p>So I had some thoughts come up with John Dyer&#39;s post <a href="http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/worlds-first-augmented-reality-virtual-communion-can-≠-should/" rel="nofollow">http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/worlds-first-augmented-reality-virtual-communion-can-≠-should/</a> and John Saddington&#39;s repost <a href="http://churchcrunch.com/2009/07/08/virtual-communion-just-because-you-can-doesnt-mean-you-should/" rel="nofollow">http://churchcrunch.com/2009/07/08/virtual-communion-just-because-you-can-doesnt-mean-you-should/</a> about the concept of virtual communion (Eucharist, Lord&#39;s Table, etc.).</p> <p>Human3rror suggested that we move it to the forums. I initially thought we needed a more public discussion place, but then thought there are plenty of people here and what better way to destroy (I mean build) a forum than bring in some controversial topics.</p> <p>So I wanted to ask people&#39;s thoughts about doing communion online. Please be as clear as possible and use as little theological jargon as you can (and explain it when you need to) so we can stay on the same page.</p> <p>As background, there are three basic views of communion. One says that the bread and wine (juice) is physically changed into the actual physical body and blood of Jesus. The second view says that there is a spiritual change in the bread and cup but it does not physically change. The third view is that it is a memorial and there is not a physical change or spiritual change within the elements but we are remembering Christ&#39;s death and through the shared and remembered practice we are drawn into the larger body of Christ.</p> <p>So a couple basic questions. 1) Can we do viritual communion? 2) Should we do viritual communion? 3) If we do or don&#39;t how does that affect on-line church and that developing community. </p>