Seth Godin Trips Me Out with Semantics
Seth Godin is cool. I like that guy, but he has a “way” with words sometimes… and I think he does it on purpose.
Today’s post by Seth about “The First Question every Web Designer Must Ask” is a little odd.
Seth asks:
“Do you want the people visiting this site to notice it?”
The answer is yes. This applies to everyone, not just artists, musicians, and web 2.0 companies. Seth would say that for “everyone else” it’s actually no.
“Everyone else” is a lot of people. It’s probably 90% (if not more) of the world wide web.
What’s more interesting is that he suggests that the purpose of a website is to “tell a story” and I’ll agree with that, but either I have a much more holistic approach to storytelling or something else because I think part of the overall story is the actual look and feel of the site.
Sometimes, the design of the site has much more “effect” in terms of the overall picture, story, and narrative than the content (at times).
I think your blog and your website design has as much to say about who you are as a person, a business, an organization, as it does the written copy.
Semantics? Perhaps. Not so sure this time. I think Seth Godin is just wrong. Maybe it’s just because I am “kinda” a web designer and developer (some might say I’m not). I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before.
But I like you anyway Seth. I hope you like me too.
Buzz it!
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30 Responses to “Seth Godin Trips Me Out with Semantics”
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Whether I like your or not John has nothing to do with whether you understood the point of my post.
When someone walks into a cathedral, they notice 'it', where it is the scale, the granite, the carving, etc. That's why people traveled there. To see the building.
When people walk into the local community center for a memorial service for a local citizen, they don't notice the carpeting. They notice their friends.
so perhaps seth it depends on the "intent" of the visit? the thing with websites is that the first thing you notice is the "design" before you even begin to read the copy and content.
purpose of visit may have been to read, but it's not the first thing you see.
i get your point though… but not sure if the physical visit to a meat-space location translates 100% to a visit to an online property…?
Although the community center analogy is true in one sense, how often will you want to return to that particular community center to meet new people unless it is a place that you would like to return to?
I’ll go to meet friends everyday. I’ll go to a cathedral to admire once a year. But if it’s a cool coffee shop with artwork and comfy chairs where I meet friends – I’ll take that over the McDonalds with friends.
If this makes any sense, I think it’s a combo of design, content and personality that drives the visits up. But you knew that!
I see both points, but I have to agree with John on this one. “Off-the-blogs”, the purpose or intent of the visit is what makes all the difference.
To quote Seth, “When people walk into the local community center for a memorial service for a local citizen, they don’t notice the carpeting. They notice their friends.” This is true. At the same time, if the same people were walking into the same community center for a cross church meeting. The first thing they would typically notice is the quality of the facility. They are there for the meeting, but I guarantee they will remember how sift or hard the chairs were, how dirty the walls were, how clean the bathrooms were.
On the web, it’s a bit different. If I open a link and the page looks like it was built in 1996, has flashing multi-colored graphics and that dancing banana in the header, I’m not going to read it, no matter what my original intent was.
Himm, maybe Seth is right, because the first thing you notice is the website.
Maybe notice is a very understated word.
Maybe we don't want people to be blow away, awe-struct and flashed by the design and graphics that they don't get involved with the content. The opposite can also be true.
And yes I do agree that the design should be an extension of the 'story-teller' as much as the content. For both play varying roles for different people.
Ultimately you would want someone to go "cool site, and wow the content…" and be comfortable to come back again to contribute without getting stuck on 'cool site'
This is all about balance. It depends on the site's purpose. You can't make it too flashy and expect people to stick around for all of the content. For me, anyway, if the site is overpowering, I leave. But a poorly designed and a poor looking site feels like a poor content site. All of this fails if the content stinks anyway.
Wow, the semantics here are getting thick. To notice or not to notice…
yeah I'm with Josh on the balance thing.
Word!
I see both points, but I have to agree with John on this one. "Off-the-blogs", the purpose or intent of the visit is what makes all the difference.
To quote Seth, "When people walk into the local community center for a memorial service for a local citizen, they don't notice the carpeting. They notice their friends." This is true. At the same time, if the same people were walking into the same community center for a cross church meeting. The first thing they would typically notice is the quality of the facility. They are there for the meeting, but I guarantee they will remember how sift or hard the chairs were, how dirty the walls were, how clean the bathrooms were.
On the web, it's a bit different. If I open a link and the page looks like it was built in 1996, has flashing multi-colored graphics and that dancing banana in the header, I'm not going to read it, no matter what my original intent was.
I tend to agree with Seth on this one. Unless it's a site about art or design, etc. the design shouldn't be the point. The design is a tool to make sure you're accomplishing whatever it is you want to do with your site! For example, you're change to the design on this site John, you said, would "call out…sponsorhip better". Well, it does and the design changed in order to accomplish that. But people don't realize it. They don't think, "wow, the ads are really popping on this site." At the same time, you are passionate about design and it shows with all the wordpress themes you've created. Even this new one, when someone lands here, am I wrong to suggest that you want people to notice the design? Seth on the other hand, his blog…no design…it IS all about the words, so his design is perfect for that.
Thanks John!
Call me Switzerland but I think you're both right. Both I think are important to consider. Basically I think Seth's saying know your audience and don't let design out perform your message. Much like churches who have an awesome worship service but all people notice is the technology/music/whatever and not the message. Or likewise the other extreme where churches have such terrible technology/music/whatever that the message doesn't get noticed. Then we've lost.
I dunno, I tend to have an unapologetically bias towards websites with good design. I travel a lot and when I look for a church…unless I've heard about it by word of mouth or actually have met the people in person…I have to look online. And if I'm not feelin' the website, I keep looking, unless something else on their site compels me beyond the design/layout, etc.
I'm like this with many things online. I tell this to my friends and I discover not everyone approaches things online the same way. Tends to be a quirk of mine. I'm looking for stuff that resonates with my "mythos." Part of my mythos includes greatly designed websites. Hahaha.
"Everyone has something that moves you so that you long for heaven or the future kingdom of God. Sometimes you will meet a person who shares to a great degree the same 'mythos' thread. Often the person is part of the thread him or herself. This is very hard to describe, obviously." – Tim Keller
I'm with Jonathan (and John) on this one. Let's take for example Northpoint's April Fools web page (which unfortunately is no longer up). Let's assume it was real for a moment. I don't care what kind of story they were going to tell. I wasn't staying on that page.
Seth says, "When people walk into the local community center for a memorial service for a local citizen, they don't notice the carpeting. They notice their friends." I would agree, but those people aren't going to the local community center because their purpose was to utilize the community center or to see what it was like. I suspect if they went to see what it was like because they wanted to utilize it for an event as opposed to going for a specific purpose and saw dirty carpets, they'd have a much different opinion.
If I am looking for a specific piece of information or somebody says, "Go here to get what you need" then yes, I am probably not all that concerned with the design of a site as I might never go back to it again if I get what I needed from it. However, if I see a site or link while on Twitter or at a blog and I click on it, regardless of what kind of site it is, it's going to take me about 10 seconds to determine whether or not I want to stay and check things out or move on.
I agree
I just like that John got his A handed to him by Seth in that first line.
No semantics there.
John joins a long line of others who came before him.
I can only hope to one day be snubbed by the great one.
I'll just say this..First impressions matter a ton.
What if this is really a question of how one defines "good design"? What if the some of the best design is designed that doesn't get noticed by 98% of the people who interact with it because it does its job so well that it practically transparent?
good point scott.
"minimalist" is still a noticeable design, not a lack of design.
i love it when Uncle Seth visits!
very cool – especially since I am reading his book Tribes.
and I love this Tribe, lead on John – we are with you
I just got my Tribes hardcopy and just downloaded the audioversion (free!) this week. When I mentioned it to a friend, they said they finished Tribes and that Seth Godin is clearly NOT Xtian – even pointing to the Christian tribe as being committed to a myth…
Is this true? Wonder if Seth would comment. If that is the case, I'm am surprised how much he seems to interact with church leaders…
I'm surrounded by designers on a daily basis, and could probably get them to overhaul my site (probably should). I am not overly concerned (at the moment) with the site design. I do want to write compelling content. I understand the possible reach that it may have to those searching for "Snow in Atlanta on April 7th." The fact that I got indexed in less than 6 hours and found because of a random search is exciting. When they get to the site, I want them to see authentic love for my Creator. I want them to see the passion that I have for Jesus.
Just trying to build my little tribe.
good discussion. jerry seinfeld once said something to the effect that even if you're famous, people only give you 90 seconds of grace if your act isn't that funny. so in short, the appeal will only get you so far.
i think that good design can help "direct traffic", so to speak, but it isn't necessarily the draw. unless it is as john proposes, part of the whole. which i think is an emerging trend, but not the dominant one, which is where i think godin is coming from.
i think that slick design also has a reverse effect when it is ubiquitous, meaning that i think people get suspicious when design is TOO good, if you know what i mean.
I think I'm going to have to take John's side in this. I think a good design can enhance the story, maybe subtly, but its still having an affect. It can have an affect in the same way that a bad or even the wrong design can detract from the story. Maybe it has to do with having the correct design for the story. So then, I guess, I kind of agree with Seth. Now I'm confused on who I agree with?
Yup. He's been here a few times before…
he's a good guy.